Kate Bowler, a young scholar of Christianity, had just written a book called Blessed, about the Christian idea that good things happen to good people, when she was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer at the age of 35. Suddenly confronted with this devastating news, and people’s well-meaning but often lacking responses to it, Bowler wrote a book, launched a podcast, and became a leading voice in a national conversation about suffering. David Brooks joins Bowler for a conversation about human frailty, why optimism can sometimes be a burden, and the dangers of worshiping at the altar of success.